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I am not really sure where to put this. Given something that was raised in a thread in the Players Lounge that is now locked... I am wondering if there was an oversight in these zones as to where the borders actually are, perhaps the political ones are different?



I actually think this is highly debatable. If you wish to talk about borders then here is my argument with regard to this (I know the game might or might not support this and I know the "Winged Guard" argument for what their borders are already). A lot of the borders of southeastern clans are fairly debatabe, period. You have two big waring nations with a sort of nomans land between them (Illian and Tear) and another little nation fighting for its independence (Mayene), borders are always going to be in question and all sort of claim the same area of land sometimes. Yes, I do know in the books all of the drowned lands are considered Mayene and Winged Guard believe that their borders in game extend very close to Tear (encompassing lithe area etc but not mirkwood); they base this on room descriptions and that if you scalp a corpse in this zone it shows as Mayene. Now I don't entirely agree with this as perhaps it was an oversight on the part of zone admin in the creation of the zone or even something they couldn't change without effecting balance in some way. Let me explain why...

When you look at ANY Wheel of Time map it shows that there are two peninsulas east of Tear, the furtherest east is Mayene and they're separated by a swamp/lake. North of Mayene on these maps the drowned lands are labeled however the actual "drowned lands" don't extend across to the western peninsula which on these maps is shown clearly to be within Tear's border. According to these maps the actual border of Mayene is probably about where the patty is on the bridge (which is what I've always thought is the case in game too) and the lithe woman would be part of the western peninsula that is supposed to be part of Tear.

Now I did some investigation in game because this is an issue I am passionate about and I would like for people not to be screwed around over this kind of thing in future as well as I like the accuracy this game usually has with the actual books its based on. Yes, you can scalp something in this zone and it shows as Mayene. I've gone to the effort to create a visual map with the aid of zMUD to help you understand the borders better (the zone itself is pretty confusing to look at). The rooms I marked red are within this "mayene" zone and the very border, I marked all the borders to the lithe zone. Yes starting at the first border all e n 2e of Tear's east gate the room name is "Nearing the Drowned Lands", but as they are on the western side of the swamp/lake I argue that these drowned lands are not actually part of Mayene's actual "drowned lands" as shown on other WoT maps.

I am just pointing out this technicality so that others might keep it in mind for any other political disputes. The in game map does not accurately represent the WoT world in the southeast, I highly doubt what it does represent was intended by staff. I also doubt staff would allow the Winged Guard to make a land grab so close to Tear without any distinguishable borders (such as the bridge/choke) just like they won't allow nations to claim Lugard (I know of three that have tried and the staff roasted them). For people who aren't familiar with the politics of the southeast I would like to think clan members would be a little more lenient as not everyone buys into all the wars and people claiming each others land.

- zMUD map I created
- Wheel of Time map for comparison

Also no way in hell do Winged Guard borders go up to the stedding, its a tiny nation fighting for your independence. Even most Winged Guard wouldn't dispute that mirkwood is part of Tear and south spine Tear probably claims too but I would have to check.

I don't know if this makes sense but are the zone borders supposed to be like this?

Players, particularly in the three Southern clans have for years claimed borders that were both entirely unrealistic and RPishly incorrect - Tear claiming up to Maredo, for instance, Illian taking everything up to the South gate of Lugard (which is a fairly decent chunk of Murandy) and Mayene/Tear claiming South Spine.

It's not something the Watchers have thus far been prepared to step in on, which seems likely to be the status quo unless something drastic happens. I should point out that since our maps don't exactly match those of the books, if we were to enforce borders per RP then Tear's territory would stop about six rooms North of it's Northern gate, Mayene would be miniscule and the Queen's Guard would have no authority two rooms south of Caemlyn because Kintara is not part of Andor. Neither is Aringill, technically.

With particular reference to the lithe mob, I reiterate that human mobs are not 'things', objects that are owned as part of a particular territorial claim.

http://www.wotmud.org/directory/maps/mainmap.jpg

Thanks for the quick reply Itesh, you're basically getting at the same thing I was! And much better map, the border for Tear is far more clearly defined on yours and obviously helps prove my point.

Personally, I am quite fine with those clans having little RPish feuds over borders (ie. Tairens claiming Mayene is part of Tear and vice versus) but when it comes down to people who are not part of SE politics (people who aren't clanned or are from other clans) then I think these clans should respect the borders appropriate to their map when it comes to law enforcement.

In the case of Andor which you mentioned, the Lion Warden don't class the south Caemlyn zone as part of Andor. For example when someone murders someone in wretch chief, they don't enforce laws or warrant them. I believe they have their borders and rules posted some where.

Also when you look at Illian/Tear road (another good example) the zone is marked as wilderness and when you look at a map like the one you posted its actually part of Maeredo Plains which is neither nation's. I would like to think neither defenders or companions actually enforce law in these areas with the exception of just having RPish fueds with each other's clans if that makes sense. I actually don't think Illian claims up to Lugard south gate but to the Valley of the Kings area also. So to me these are great examples of players respecting the in game borders established and realistically based on the maps from the books.

However, my problem is in the case of Mayene having a zone that is clearly not part of Mayene flagged as Mayene and then Winged Guard using it to enforce laws etc there. Mayene is supposed to be a small nation on the far eastern peninsula and to me it doesn't make any sense RPishly according to the books or being the way it is in game. It doesn't stop them from hunting criminals there regardless of it being Tear's land or not, because they're at war with Tear anyway - just as no one is going to stop you hunting criminals in the wilderness. The real problem is that they can warrant someone there when they shouldn't be able to.

The ideal fix in my opinion would be to mark that zone as Tear and move the zone border to the choke/bridge with the patty on it so at least there is a distinguishable landmark for where the border starts and finishes and its logical RPishly as its a tactical checkpoint the Winged Guard can defend. The current zone borders are pretty vague with no distinguishing markers.

I haven't looked into precisely where the zones involved begin and end, but I will say that each zone has it's co-ordinates set once, as a whole - which means, for example, that if your suggested border is in the centre of the zone and not at the juncture between zones, then both sides of the border are going to show up as either Tear or Mayene - eq Tear is Tear and Drowned Lands is Tear too, or Tear is Mayene, and Drowned Lands is Mayene too.

Large scale re-organisation of the zones in that area is not currently on Zone Admins lists. Official recognition, alteration or setting of clan borders would need to be addressed by the Watcher's as a whole.

Well, if something is scalped in the rooms we are claiming it gives the message "slain in Mayene." So it's a possibility that those lands are actually set as part of Mayene. As for the laws and warranting, it seems like the southeast is a warring area that has always been as such. The Mayeners are fighting for independence and to keep their land. The Tairens are fighting to swallow up Mayene again. If that is the case, what happpens in war? When someone wins, they take things, mainly land. If we are winning the war, and no Defenders can stop us, why can we not claim the land that we have for years? (Also, it's pretty obvious that the Winged Guards have been winning the war, as the Defenders just started becoming active again in the last few weeks.)

Because its a balance issue for the game Shaldier in that I can't just go clear out Lugard and claim it as mine because its changing the setting of the world according to the books too significantly.

Itesh, the zmud map I linked to in my post marks the zone border rooms in red. I don't think a serious re-organizing of the zone is necessary but perhaps moving the rooms east of the bridge/choke to the zone east of there which is Mayene if that makes sense. Then flagging the zone on what is the western peninsula (western side of the bridge) which has the lithe as Tear. The actual layout would remain the same and would not require creating new rooms, simply changing the zone of the 7-8 rooms east of the bridge. I understand zone admin probably have things that are higher priorities however I do feel that this relatively straight forward change should be made.

Zones don't work that way. You have a limited number of rooms to work with and you can't just slide a room from one zone to another.

Mayene is owned by Tear, its all Tear, there is no Mayene border except what wingers want to pretend

Due to the nature of the game, I would actually say that yes you can go and say that you control all of Lugard. As long as you can manage to kill anyone who claims differently, why not?

Because of the dynamic nature of the southeast I don't think there is any set in stone as to where which clan can warrant in which area except within zones that obviously belong to them(I.E. load their mobs). Because of the near constant state of war between nations down there the borders are constantly in flux. As the Winged Guard fight back against the Tearians and push them further towards the city of Tear, the area of their influence grows to encompass more land which historically might have belonged to Tear. If the war shifts in the other direction, the areas controlled by Mayene might shrink to include just the city itself and the village right outside.

I understand the desire to have the countries borders set as they were according to the books, but at the same time I think it is also important to acknowledge the achievements of the clans in those areas. The mud isn't the same as the books if for no other reason than the history of the mud itself(a subject I have often asked about, only to annoyingly receive lists of who faded when). I mean, the CoL/Andor wars didn't happen in the books did they? What about the RE/Andor war? To simply discount the events which have led up to this point in the mud would be a bad move to make I believe.


Interesting(to me) side note is that according to the map that Itesh posted, Kintara and the Maredo plains both belong to Far Madding

Clan borders always bugged me. On one hand, it's pretty ridiculous how much area people claim in game, but why wouldn't they? There's nothing stopping them as long as the other clans don't also claim the area. Heck, clans could probably even agree to jointly enforce their laws in the same area. As far as clans are concerned, it doesn't hurt to claim as much territory as they can because they have no responsibility or cost to it and certainly have something to gain (get to warrant people weee). Plus, it allows clan people to finaggle with RP in order to do things other people shouldn't be (e.g. Companion master who killed Lugard butcher)

Does this mean that imms need to step in? Not necessarily. I was certainly rubbed the wrong way when Viv stepped in and wouldn't let Salcav claim all the Great Forest because the Forresters are there (meaning that Forresters are sovereign!). On the other hand, unchecked borders gives a lot of opportunity for bullies to be bullies.

Obviously, in a perfect mud there would be costs associated with a clan claiming territory that would rein in over-expansive claims. I don't really know how to do that here save having the imms set recognized borders and allowing lee-way for clans to expand their claims upon a reasonable showing of cause. As I said, having that occur can rub people the wrong way.


As a side note, don't assume the limit of one country's border is the also the limit of its neighbor's. E.g., the area around Far Madding isn't controlled by the city, but is rather unclaimed by any of the surrounding countries. Likewise, don't overly rely on the map for border locations. There is a (relatively) significant no-man's land between Andor and Cairhien along the River Erinen which is hard to tell from the map. Similarly, the books show that there is no doubt which nation Aringill belongs to (hint: Andor).

Actually I always read that as Far Madding being an independent city-state in the middle of an unclaimed wilderness. Those aren't Far Madding's outer borders you're seeing, but where other nations borders stop.

/digress

well, can't blame me for trying!

That's something I've always wanted. Both sides are constantly fluctuating in activity (I remember a time where there was MAYBE 1 active Winger and we were farming Berelain almost daily....I also remember when Defenders had nearly no one active). I really do think it would be an awesome addition to have land be able to be changed between hands after wars. The latest Tear and Andor war, for example, just ended when we kind of got tired of it, not when any specific goals were achieved.

As far as Tear's position on land, Mayene is just a province of Tear and any land they claim is still technically Tairen land. In our position, a winged guard warrant is simply a rebel faction within the province of Mayene saying they want to kill you, the same as an IF warrant. In the same vein, Tear can warrant for any crimes commited in Mayene as well. I.E., if you murder someone in Mayene you can end up with the official justice clan warrant (Tear) as well as a warrant from a rebel group (WG).

As an FYI, here's the official Tairen land:

1.3 Tear. Tear is used to refer to both the Nation of Tear and the city of Tear. The nation of Tear stretches to the north as far as "Road Near a Low Hill" just south of Far Madding and the Maredo Plains to the Eastern Gate of Luggard, encompasses all of Haddon Mirk and as far as “Within the Dragon Wall” in the southern spine, all of the land to the east up to and including the City of Mayene and to the west all of the Essenian Way commonly known as the Tear to Illian Road.

that's been in our laws for who knows how long.

Gadrel, thats hilarious. Tear claiming Maeredo Plains up to Lugard and Far Madding! I know I would be appealing a warrant there if it ever happened. Also up to the dragonwall? Come on now, thats like all e 2s ish of Cairhien. I always thought Tear only claimed up to brokendoor and TT. I am sure the Cairhien Rising Sun wouldn't like to know what you consider your borders haha.

Shrug, they've been posted before! Plus the territory claims have been around forever and not changed.

That being said, I can't remember the last time I was in Maredo, much less warranted someone there!

I remember land disputes in the books being very similar though, as absurd as it is. Most nations claimed borders basically as far as they could without pissing off neighboring nations too much, yet they only had influence/patrolled close to capital cities mainly. Ie, EF is part of andor. I vaguely remember mention of Cairhien claiming a huge portion of uninhabited spine and Tear claiming Maredo plains but could be mistaken.

This^

I don't normally agree with fishy-smelling goat lickers, but this is one of the best things I've head concerning the war with Mayene and Tear. I will admit, that when I first came to the Winged Guards, Tear was winning the war. I can say with all honesty that now Mayene is winning the war. I feel that the borders are not a solid thing, as they weren't in the books due to the nature of the situation. I'd like to see yall being more active, Little Defender. It's been a while since I got to hang one of your scalps on the pike in Mayene.

I think you guys are confusing actively winning a war with having no-one on the opposing side to fight.

Exactly Thena, nobody to fight means nobody to defend. So we were winning. Now they have 2-3 regular players, so the war is back on!

More of a balance topic if you ask me.

I do agree however with what a few people said. In particular about this:


I would like to see certain areas being enforced as "no mans land". Kind of makes it hard to deal with wanteds when every zone is "owned" by someone and you can't do anything without breaking laws. Not that it has personally bothered me considering I'm wanted almost everywhere for that reason, but I can see it being hard on others. Same side PK and clan wars are an important part of Light Side justice clans, without it we just PK cross race and have a pretty clan tag for show.

1 zone surrounding a clans cities would be a nice limit to see. The rest is neutral and can not be controlled by anyone.