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It would be interesting if Verin was Mesaana. Though, I think that would be spoiled since she only declared herself as Black and she killed herself... still would be a nice "little" twist added.

for firetruck sake, chosen ARE darkfriends. they are friends of the dark, stop saying that 'darkfriend' doesn't include chosen........

I agree if Verin turned out to be Mesaana it would be a nice twist. I havent really though back yet as to whether or not it would have been possible for it to be her but I have classes this morning so I need something to daydream about.

that would be the dumbest twist ever. it doesn't even make sense

Almost anything can make sense if you twist the words enough.

i guess if you're stupid enough to believe anything, then "anything can make sense".

I dont see how stupidity has anything to do with it. You can twist words however you want to make things make sense. Just because something makes sense doesn't always mean that it is true. Of course the last post seems to be just a backhanded way of calling me stupid. *shrug*

If you think Mesaana as Verin is a viable outcome of the books, I think you are stupid.

I mean, first of all it can't happen because we simultaneously know the locations of both Verin and Mesaana and those locations are not the same (e.g. Verin is with Rand/Cadsuane for like two entire books while Mesaana is somewhere in the White Tower). But also they also have entirely different personalities and descriptions. Plus, Verin was in a circle with another Aes Sedai and a Windfinder during the battle of the cleansing and if she was Mesaana, then those two at least would know it because she would have been much stronger in that circle than she should have been.

I guess I will play ball for a minute and see if I can build a case for it based upon your arguments.

Verin was indeed with the Aiel Wise Ones for almost two hole books. However, during that time we only saw, at most, three instances of her actually being in the tower. Most of the work done during that time was done by the keeper. It is not entirely impossible for Verin to have used traveling to jaunt to the tower when she needed to get stuff done and then to come back. Unlikely for sure, but not impossible.

Now you moved on to the battle while cleansing the taint and her being in a circle. If I remember correctly, in the last book Egwene mentioned about being able to seperate herself from the circle when joining with the novices. Using that as evidence it would not be unlikely that Verin, if indeed she was one of the forsaken, would also know how to do that.

Lastly, I would like to point out the one person who was completely absent from the battle at Shadar Logoth aside from Moridin. Mesaana. Perhaps she was not absent after all.


P.s.- I would like to point out that I sincerely doubt that Verin would turn out to be Mesaana. The sections of the book from her point of view would seem to indicate to me that she is not a forsaken. For instance her suprise during that battle at not being able to see the weaves that the forsaken was using to try to kill her. Mesaana would have known about inverted weaves.

The argument however while almost certainly not true would be plausible and could make sense which was the point of my second post.

If i remember correctly, there were other sisters missing that were known to be in the Tower, some of which were on Egwene's list from Verin, but a handful that were not. It can be easily guessed that if Mesaana was there, after the Tower's reunification she should be definitely gone,(after all, she wanted "these so-called Aes Sedai" completely broken and beaten), since her plans were in ruins. I bet the ones that left that were also not on the list, apart from Mesaana, most likely worked for Cadsuane....as was hinted in New Spring, that woman was a force unto herself, very nearly autonomous from the Tower and keeping an eye on it, as the Tower kept an eye on the world.

Appearance is so easily disguised, but if RJ says Mesaana has been seen, then to clear up the Danelle matter, I would suggest looking at book 5 i believe, in the very beginning where the council that was meeting in Elaida's study. Danelle was there I think...id look but my copy of Fires of Heaven is not anywhere near me at the moment. I was certain there was a woman there who was described as having bronze silk for the fabric of their dress, which is what Alviarin saw when she kissed Mesaana's hem, black scrollwork on bronze skirts.

Just a correction....Mesaana wasn't specifically located in the Tower. Shaidar Haran told her the call had gone out to come to Shaidar Logoth, and she hadn't come. Nothing saying she couldn't have already been there, but been fighting for Rand as Verin. Not that i think that happened, but in that instance, Verin is known to be there, and Mesaana is unaccounted for other than "you didn't come".

The point is that in order for Verin to be Mesaana, you have to ignore everything we know about Verin and everything we know about Mesaana and then make an arbitrary assumption that they are the same and also make an arbitrary guess about what is happening behind the scenes. There is no evidence of them being the same, and in order for them to be the same, we have to assume that both characters are acting completely different off the screen as they are on screen. In particular, we have several cases of viewing the storyline through Verin's eyes which gives a particularly keen insight on her personality and thought-process.

Look, everyone in the entire books who was in a position to guess on Mesaana's location guessed that she was located inside the White Tower. Several Forsaken said quite authoritatively that she was indeed inside the Tower (not just influencing--actually within). We actually saw a couple meetings between Mesaana and Alviarin, but there are many more implied meetings between them, as it is indicated that Mesaana is very knowledgeable about the going-ons of the Tower and is very aware of Alviarin's actions towards Elaida. It is also very strongly implied that Mesaana and Alviarin meet semi-frequently, and Mesaana is instructing Alviarin about what she is supposed to be doing in relation to her position as keeper and then afterward when she is only a leader of the Black Ajah.

Finally, if you do indeed assume the Verin=Mesaana, then the chapter of the battle of Shadar Logoth doesn't fully make sense. We get to see it from Verin's perspective, and she does not recognize Graendal when obviously she should if she is Mesaana and Graendal would recognize her. We know that Verin is not using a Mask of Mirrors because she has been inside of Steddings and Far Madding without having her appearance change (i.e. there have been times that she does not have access to channeling and so she could not use the Power to alter her appearance) and her appearance didn't change when she died. Since her appearance is as-is, Rand would have also been able to recognize her if she was indeed Mesaana.

Tomas, her warder, also completely doesn't make sense if the connection was true.

so what you're trying to say is that there is a chance verin is mesaana 0.o??

your logic is ingenious good sir, simply ingenious

p.s. don't argue against xander and clerissa

wat

don't mind Oraste, Angriff. Btw, I agree completely, and I just recently checked and Fires of Heaven doesn't have Danelle wearing bronze silk, nor does Shemerin. *snaps her fingers* Darn't it.....for some reason I specifically remember a small gathering of Aes Sedai in the Tower, and one of them had bronze skirts. *pouts* I wish I could remember, darn it, now i'm going to have to read through them a 30th time!

For me, the real question to consider now is (if we're assuming that she was indeed impersonating an Aes Sedai), was she one of those that fled before Egwene re-oathed everyone, or if she knows how to get around an oath rod oath. I think the latter isn't very likely, though some people have argued it and we don't really have much to go on about the nature of the oath rod (and based on what we DO know about it, we know that contemporary channelers don't know very much about it; an example of that being that they didn't know that it's what causes the ageless features

i agree, the chosen are puzzled by the current Aes sedai bonds. Don't ask me who/when i forget, but i do know it was a woman (moggie? lanfear) commenting on what the current AS call the bond.

Also, Mesaana met with sheriam? right before she died and wanted the dream ter'angreal. she was surprised to hear the rebels had something of that nature. Verin gave the originals to egwene, and even commented on it b4 she died.


/sigh i thought i was good at picking up clues, looks like i gotta go back and reread all books again, with notebook handy. Oh well maybe next will be done when i finish....

i missed that one completely. nice

Yeah, that pretty much definitively takes out Verin from the listing. It likely even points to an un-Bonded Aes Sedai as Mesaana. Oh, and it is Moridin who comments that the Warder Bond is a new invention of the modern Aes Sedai.

"He was about to turn away when the outlines of the gateway suddenly began to flex and tremble. Transfixed, he watched until the opening simply--melted. He had never been a man to give way to obscenities, but several rose in his mind. What had the woman done? These barbarous rustics offered too many surprises. A way to Heal being severed, however imperfectly. That was impossible! Except they had done it. Involuntary rings [the a'dam?]. Those Warders and the bond they shared with their Aes Sedai. He had known of that for a long, long time, but whenever he thought he had the measure of them, these primitives revealed some new skill, did something that no one in his own Age had dreamed of. Something the pinnacle of civilization had not known! What had the girl done?" [Path of Daggers, Ch.2 Unweaving, 82]